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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

In have started playing on the Erard preset. It sounds lovely with 'CHasinh'. As well as being a superb model with which to play rachmaninov, the Erard also allows me to hear the beats clearly - I find somewhat more clearly than with some of the other presets.

With this in mind, I thought I'd ask you guys whether you'd like me to produce a midi file of checks i.e. 12ths, 15ths etc.? It would mean we could all hear the same thing, I kind of auto analysis!

I would love to do this, but would need advice as to how to go about it i.e. how one goes about checking CHas completely and where to begin etc..

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (11-03-2010 21:25)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Hi Sigasa, you kindly write:

..."I thought I'd ask you guys whether you'd like me to produce a midi file of checks i.e. 12ths, 15ths etc.? It would mean we could all hear the same thing, I kind of auto analysis!
I would love to do this, but would need advice as to how to go about it i.e. how one goes about checking CHas completely and where to begin etc.."...

I would certainly like a midi file of checks, that could represent a valid test bench. You/we could begin with a reasonable hypothesis of Chas tuning.

The number of intervals to be checked could also be reduced to 4: the two Chas constants, i.e. 12ths (octave+fifth) and 15ths (double octave), plus two progressive beat-rate intervals, like 6ths and 17ths.

When you are ready, I can suggest one check method, which involves playing-rhythm and touch.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Thank you Alfredo

I await futher instruction

thanks again,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (11-03-2010 23:25)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

104

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

p.s.

here is Chasinh on the Erard preset used to play a little Rahmaninov

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 20Prac.mp3

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Thank you, Sigasa.

These remarks about "touch" are valid for all checks.

Touch has to be "medium" and "even", meaning no energy differences in your playing.

Let's get started without hesitation, we can correct for the best at anytime.

Let's check 15ths first. Start from mid-bass going up chromaticly. The high note will follow the low note after 1/4 sec.

For instance: play in 1/4 sec. sequence C2 and C4 and hold it for 4 seconds. Pause 1 sec. Play next 15th, C2# and C4#, with the same energy and timings. And so on.

Pause a little bit, after 4 chromatic 15ths, so to refresh your ear. Start again from the last 15th.

Let's see how it goes!

I've listened to your last mp3. Tuning wise it sounds very nice. If it was a real piano I would voice it, as I find it a little bit too brilliant, but that may well be due to the brightning effect of Chas (?) or the iH setting (?).

Let's see.

Last edited by alfredo capurso (12-03-2010 11:03)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Alfredo: Do you have the 10th's check midi file that I did?

(You may have listened to the recording of the check for the earlier Scala file using the PianoTeq M3. The midi file for that should work fine for the new Scala file, yes?)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

I think the CHAS tuning is very appropriate also for pieces like the Bach-Busoni organ chorale preludes for the piano, so I played a bit of no 3 "Num komm' der Heiden Heiland" using the stretched scala file provided by Philippe and my own C3 fxp.

I can play the whole thing, but contrary to our friend sigasa, I can't seem to record without making mistakes, so I'll post only part of it...

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=Nun.mp3

Long singing organ-like lines sound fine with CHAS I think, even if its strong point is in more complex chords.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

That sounds really good, Gilles. Both the tuning and the general realism of the sound. And the playing, of course.  I like the close-up sense of it, too. Restrained, forceful, intimate, with each note isolated. Just lovely.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

OT. Gilles, how do you pronounce your name?

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Jake, I do not have the 10th's check of yours, I'm sorry, where can I get it?

Gilles, I'don't know why, I'm not managing to listen to your recording, and I would really want to. All the others PTQ files do work, yours does not. Anyway, I'll try later, it might be the web connection.

BTW, I had a forum contact with a couple of organ people, one player and one maker, saying that Chas stretched octaves would have caused a beating mess.

I asked about their narrow and caotic 5ths and 12ths but they never replyed. Funny, because in the meantime I was having others (piano colleagues) saying that Chas works only on harmonic tones instruments, like organs!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Here's the tenths check midi file:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 0notes.mid

Each pair of notes is played twice. Sometimes more, when I miss-hit a few keys, or wanted to bring out some partials.

Let me know if the two notes are recorded too quickly after one another. I can do it again.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (12-03-2010 20:13)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 20file.mp3

Alfredo, I do not wish to tread on anyones toes. If Jake prefers to perfect a midi check file for you, then that's fine by me.

Jake, I would say the same to you.

I have, however, included an mp3 demo of a 15ths check played through the Erard under lid preset tuned to CHasIH. The beats are very clear.

Hope this helps. If you want me to continue, let me know.

Regards

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Jake Johnson wrote:

OT. Gilles, how do you pronounce your name?

Thanks for the nice words. smile

In english, my name sounds like the word "chill"...different from the English Giles with one L.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Sigasa:

I had already created the 10ths midi file for an earlier scala file. So we're doing different things.

Did you save the midi file for the 17ths check? If so, we could use it for future checks--load it up and have PianoTeq play it, or render it to a wave file, as we review revisions. Good to have for CHas and any future temperament\tuning.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Hello everyone !

You seem to have much pleasure !

Good things her - the test files may be very useful, I know it is not fun to do them, but your systems are  complete. I believe that Alfredo mean MP3 files when he stated midi, as with a MP3 anyone can listen to, (with a midi file and our limited versions of pianoteq , some notes will be missing - but the midi file will be useful also , I suppose it is easy to record at the same time a midi file and a MP 2, is it .

I will experiment with the midi keyboard and detuning feature soon.

Listening to your samples of octaves (Thanks so much , Sigasa and Jack , please pursue, and send the remaining, octaves, the twelves the 10ths, the 17ths and the double octaves, whenever  time permit)

Anytime we need the complete scale 88 notes, so the checks are complete.

Is your usual stretch used at 3.0 , in the octaves record ? (we need to know, may be for the tests a version with and a version without stretch may be necessary, but I suggest that the first thing would be to determine what amount of stretch is most realistic with a real Chas tuning. Without any, the 5th keep the same relation all along, so some stretch may be necessary, indeed.

A question to Philippe :

Is the stretch feature using a model based on root 2 of twelve ? there is some kind of progression in the octave size I dont understand where it comes from. May that kind of thing happen because of the computer sound card ?

The music on the Erard sound very well - may be little voicing in the treble, also) . Erard grands have a very fruity treble (while smooth when original strings are there) a little short, saturates easily, like there.
I wonder which model it is ? is it cross stringed , or it is the famous parallel Erard, that have less an acoustic  break between plain and bass strings ?


Talking of organs, I asked to  the organist of the Ste Eustache church, who had an experimental organ build on which a "pure 5th" tuning was used - that one implies real beating at the double octave level, way more audible than - I wanted to tell him about Chas. No answer at this day.
I know organists are afraid of beats in octaves !

Best regards to all. Ill post later.

Thanks for all the music !

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

My thought was just that the midi file would be more flexible--it could be used for future revisions and while using the Detune pane.

One thing you may not see yet, Olek--one can play a midi file in PianoTeq while making edits, such as pitch changes, and the sound will change "on the fly" to adjust to the edit. That means that, if you wanted, you could create a midi file of just playing a single tenth 20 times or so and listening as you experimented with changing both pitches.

One thing surprises me. Thinking that we might be reinventing the wheel, I did a quick search on the internet for midi files of 10ths or M5's, and found nothing. Hard to believe that no one has bothered to create (or at least share) similar files.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

I'm very happy with your approach, very much. Despite distances we (you more than me) are well progressing.

Thank you, Jake, I've just listen to the 10ths check. I would not pass that progression, so I suggest to go on with the same frequencies Sigasa is using. Better also to refer to the same timings. Playing mistakes? Does not matter...a pinch of humanity. As for the midi potentiality, I think you are many steps ahead of me, and any suggestion from you will be precious.

In my opinion, intervals checks have not been published yet because a reliable theoretical reference was missing, so it was and still is difficult to get a decent progression worth publishing. These cause and effect could be reversed. 

Thank you Sigasa. Your execution is correct, in that it is regular. Also with the other checks we do not want any acceleration.

You have provided 6 blocks of 4 notes, perfect as a start.

In the first 3-blocks (up to B) there is a strong beat covering the beat we want. In the second block the most audible beats are fairly what we want, so it is very much encouraging.

I'd suggest to start from the second block register, right up to the end of your keyboard. This time playing 15th - 12th - up one semitone 15th - 12th and so on. Same energy, same timings, same pausing. That is perfect.

Isaac, your point too about iH is correct, we may be checking Chas with an unconvenient iH. In any case, we are soon going to discover it.

Gilles, no way with that file...I'm biting my fingers...

Regards, a.c.

Last edited by alfredo capurso (13-03-2010 01:33)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Alfredo--Did you listen to the midi file or to the audio file I conveyed to Olek about a week or so ago? The audio file, yes, was recorded using an earlier Scala file. Using the midi file, assuming that you have the demo of PianoTeq, will let you accomplish much more. Just load it, load the Scala file, reduce the Unisons to 0, and play the midi file.

But the timing is off?

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

OK. Here are the midi file and the mp3 of 10ths using the most recent Scala file (Philippe's):

The C3 piano:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … st%20C.mp3

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … st%20C.mid

The mp3 was recorded using the C3 Close mic piano with the unisons set to 0 and the reverb turned off. 

I've also recorded the M3 Close mic piano using the same midi file. (But the Scala file was designed for the C3 above.)

The M3 piano:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … st%20C.mp3

Please ignore the file named "C3 Better..." Yeah, I forgot to load the CHas Scala file...The correct file is C3 Replacement Better..."

Last edited by Jake Johnson (13-03-2010 03:44)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

alfredo capurso wrote:

Gilles, no way with that file...I'm biting my fingers...

Regards, a.c.

I re-downloaded it from the files section just in case. It took under 30 seconds and it played perfectly on Windows Media Player, so I don't know. The only thing that might be different from others it that it is a 320kbps mp3 instead of the more common 160kbps.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

To me the double octave size is not evenly progressive.

Just listening to it in "perfect pitch mode"

17th and 12ths test will show more, I suggest that it is due to the way the stretch is spread don the tuning (or another parameter realated to my soundcard)

When I tested with my midi Keyboard, I had a very even size and progressiveness for all intervals - but indeed with my 2 octaves keyboard it is not esay to make definitive testing.

Afredo, the midi file only contains notes to be played on a sound card computer, or a midi instrument (notes, velocity, different parameters, no tone included) while MP3 file is sound.

SO the midi file is necessary to have the same test used in Pianoteq with different setups, but the MP3 recording is useful for direct listening, I thought that you where not at ease with midi files, (or have a limited computer setup) hence my inquiry for recordings.

I listened to Gilles record , and liked it much !

Best regards

Isaac

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Jake, I listened to your "Better 10 th test" ,

Excuse my comments but :

it is a little too fast to get the beat speed (you change too fast, not much , but we need at last 2second of tone , if not it is tiring to listen , the little pause asked every 4 notes is useful, for that reason, sorry as my inquiry for 10ths or 17 ths was unclear.)

The volume is very low, I cant hear it, be it on Real or WIndows media.

The way Alfredo asked and the way the test file was recorded by Sigasa are perfect. 

I dont get something : what is a Midi audio file ? I thought that midi file does not include audio recording.

Sorry I am a bit lost here..

Last edited by OLEK (13-03-2010 13:15)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

sigasa wrote:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 20file.mp3

Alfredo, I do not wish to tread on anyones toes. If Jake prefers to perfect a midi check file for you, then that's fine by me.

Jake, I would say the same to you.

I have, however, included an mp3 demo of a 15ths check played through the Erard under lid preset tuned to CHasIH. The beats are very clear.

Hope this helps. If you want me to continue, let me know.

Regards

Chris

Sigasa, that test file is very useful. Is the stretch the same (3.0) ?

WOuld it be difficult to make all the tests with zero stretch ?

I will try to find a valuable stretch level, but I dont understand how it apply. I'd prefer Alfredo to do so.

Best regards

Isaac

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Olek:

I'll redo the 10ths test in a few minutes.

I intentionally kept the velocity fairly low, since Alfredo writes about not hitting the notes very hard.

However, you should be able to hear the notes clearly. Have you turned up the volume in the Real Player or the Windows Player? On your headphones and your sound card? On the main Windows volume control? For the latter, move your mouse pointer to the bottom right of the screen. When the toolbar appears, you should see a picture of a speaker cone or some similar image. Click on it, and its volume slider will appear. (This slider seems to have a will of its own at times.)

Since a midi file is used mainly to record the act of playing notes, it could be called an audio file. However, since it's not a recording of music in the way that most people think of a recording, calling it an audio file could be confusing.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (13-03-2010 16:18)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 012ths.mp3

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 012ths.mid

As requested by Alfredo Capurso

Chris

p.s. if you would like me to use a specific pianoteq preset in my mp3 demos, just let me know

Last edited by sigasa (13-03-2010 16:03)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

126

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Slower 10ths test midi file:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 20midi.mid

MP3 of the C3 playing this same midi file. I set the PTeq Sympathetic resonance to 0 eliminate beats from other strings. Unisons are also set to 0 and the reverb is turned off:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … %20res.mp3

MP3 of the C3 again playing the 10ths midi file, with the Sympathetic resonance set to the default. Unisons are still at 0 and the reverb is still off:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … %20res.mp3

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

[/quote=MP3 of the C3 playing this same midi file. I set the PTeq Sympathetic resonance to 0 eliminate beats from other strings. Unisons are also set to 0 and the reverb is turned off [/quote]

That's a good iidea Jake! I will do this with my mp3 demos. Do you prefer to use the C3? Which C3 Preset?

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

128

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

OLEK wrote:
sigasa wrote:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 20file.mp3

Alfredo, I do not wish to tread on anyones toes. If Jake prefers to perfect a midi check file for you, then that's fine by me.

Jake, I would say the same to you.

I have, however, included an mp3 demo of a 15ths check played through the Erard under lid preset tuned to CHasIH. The beats are very clear.

Hope this helps. If you want me to continue, let me know.

Regards

Chris

Sigasa, that test file is very useful. Is the stretch the same (3.0) ?

WOuld it be difficult to make all the tests with zero stretch ?

I will try to find a valuable stretch level, but I dont understand how it apply. I'd prefer Alfredo to do so.

Best regards

Isaac

I used default stretch (1.00). I've gone back to using this rather than the maximum of 3.00.

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

129

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

sigasa wrote:

MP3 of the C3 playing this same midi file. I set the PTeq Sympathetic resonance to 0 eliminate beats from other strings. Unisons are also set to 0 and the reverb is turned off

That's a good idea Jake! I will do this with my mp3 demos. Do you prefer to use the C3? Which C3 Preset?

Chris

Listening to the midi file, I kept hearing some notes beat a little on harder strikes. At first I thought it was the unisons, etc. Finally saw that it was sympathetic resonance.

I was using the C3 Close mic, so that there would be less room in the sound--so that the reflections from the room wouldn't reinforce or mask beats. (Philippe created the scala file for the C3. I don't know how much difference there is in the default iH and tuning between the M3 and C3. There is some difference in the iH, and I've started a chart, but not completed it.)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

thank you jake

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

131

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Gilles,

I can only think (and hope) you are right: "The only thing that might be different from others it that it is a 320kbps mp3 instead of the more common 160kbps."

Is it possible for you to let me have it 160 kbps? Or, can I modify some settings in my PC? Thank you.

Jake, I think these progressions are better than the others: Today 02:52:00
OK. Here are the midi file and the mp3 of 10ths using the most recent Scala file (Philippe's):
The C3 piano:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … st%20C.mp3

and: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … %20res.mp3

Your touch is getting better and the timing too. In any case, we all could  let Chris, since he is so nice, play for these tests - he has the kind of control we want. Our ear can change "mode" any second, due to any small variation of the sound spectra. Energy in playing does change the spectra, that's why touch is so important.

Yet your tests, Jake, conferm how it is convenient to leave out the lowest and the highest octaves. In fact, any small approximation in the mid-registers will have an effect on the outer, extreme registers. This is why I'd challenge the iH setting on a smaller compass.  Then we can test iH's effects on a wider compass. BTW, will it be possible to set iH for single octaves?

Isaac, indeed the iH setting may need adjusting, it may as well be calculated on this model. Anyway, in order to avoid confusion, I'd suggest to go on with Chris settings, eventually we'll have a precise idea of what has to be improved.     

Chris, what you have done is very good, no need to say. I'm posting my analysis and, I tell you all, we can be quite happy.

Next we might go for 17ths, from C2 to C7 (on a real piano), well tracing the settings and the test specifics.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Alfredo,

It is possible to change the iH note by note by increasing or reducing the length of each string.

133

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

15ths Vs 12ths Test.

Source: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 012ths.mp3

By Chris, March 13th.

48 couples

Flat = F 
Sharp = S
Good = G

Couple n.      15th          12th

1                    G              F
2                    S              F
3                    G              F
4                    G              F
5                    G              F
6                    G              G
7                    G              G
8                    G              G
9                    G              G
10                  G              G
11                  G              F
12                  G              F
13                  G              F
14                  G              F
15                  G              F
16-21             G              G
22                  G              F
23                  G              G
24                  S              F
25                  G              G
26                  G              F
27                  G              F
28-32             G              G
33                  G              F
34                  G              F
35                  G              F
36-39             G              G
40                G-Faulse     G
41                  G              F
42                  F?             F
43                  G              F
44                  S              G
45                  S              G
46                  F              G
47                  F              F
48                  G              F

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Comments:

I preferred to put an F, but 8/10 of those Fs should mean "very little flat".

The numbers of almost exact proportions is surprising, and much higher than many, many pro-tunings I've heard. We could happly go on with the 17ths test, same settings, same starting bass, up to C7. Same timing, same energy.

Jake, what you say about iH is good, we'll probably want to take that chance. If you all agree, for now I suggest we keep the iH values Chris has already been using, so we can go straight.

I'm so happy with what's happening, with you all and this amazing piano!

Best Regards, a.c.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

alfredo capurso wrote:

In any case, we all could  let Chris, since he is so nice, play for these tests - he has the kind of control we want.

NO - I can't take the credit for 'playing' these midi files. I have been programming them in Sonar LE at constant velocity 64!

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

136

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

now for something completely off topic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVz7-xYs66Q

Did this for my folks. Hope you guys like it.

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (14-03-2010 01:03)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

137

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Have just finished 17ths checks midi file (and demo m3)

here goes!

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 017ths.mid

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 017ths.mp3

using default C3 Soo Recording preset (as is)

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (14-03-2010 01:42)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

138

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Alfredo:

Thanks for posting the list of intervals that are off. Can you give us more details? In other words:

1. By flat, do you mean that an interval is too narrow, and by sharp you mean that an interval is too wide? (I think this came up elsewhere--it could be confusing...)

2. Can you list which notes in the pair are off? A narrow 12th could come from a sharp 1 or a flat 12, or both, and a wide 12th could come from a flat 1 or a sharp 12th or both...

3. Of course, each pitch correction any of us makes will affect the width of all of the other intervals (correcting the 12th off of A440, for example, would throw off the 12 from A880 and all of the other intervals). So how do we proceed once you've evaluated the other files\intervals? Will you do your usual tuning sequence?

139

Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Chris, Thanks for posting the song.  Enjoyed it. (But don't you need to get away from the keyboard and spend some time outside? You look a little pale in the video...)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Thank you all.

Chris, velocity is programmed but the touch's energy is yours, so you do get credit.

The 17ths check is very satisfactory, there are a couple of very light jumps in beats rate progression, but this is nothing compared to usual standards and common difficulties to get that perfect, in real tuning. Isaac will give us his evaluations, and more tuners may (hope Philippe too), hoping they are not ideological fighters.

If ET, beyond equal size semitones, means fluid beats progressions and maximum euphonicity, well, we are getting it. Leaving iH aside,  the octaves stretch could be and needed to be ruled, like for all the other intervals. This is what, after 300 years, is being proved. Euphonicity is related to resonance. Resonance is related to beats proportions and beats synergy, and these phenomenons can be illustrated with precise geometries.

Your points:

1. By flat, do you mean that an interval is too narrow, and by sharp you mean that an interval is too wide?"...

Yes.

2. Can you list which notes in the pair are off? A narrow 12th could come from a sharp 1 or a flat 12, or both, and a wide 12th could come from a flat 1 or a sharp 12th or both..."...

You are right, that is why in usual tuning you need to continuously cross-check intervals, they all are interrelated in a self-referencial form/economy, like in a system of levers, or a multidimensional chain, or a tensil web. When we tune, we normally have to trace the error/approximation, and that could be 2, 3 or more notes back in the chain.

3. Of course, each pitch correction any of us makes will affect the width of all of the other intervals (correcting the 12th off of A440, for example, would throw off the 12 from A880 and all of the other intervals)."...

Correct.

..."So how do we proceed once you've evaluated the other files\intervals? Will you do your usual tuning sequence?"...

These tests can tell us the correspondence degree between Chas form and the actual progressions. Once we get a fairly precise idea, we could go in any direction.

Only tonight I'll be able to post the 17ths analysis, I want to get the best listening conditions.

Regards, a.c.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 3.2010.mp3 Another piece played with same settings as used in 'Praise my soul a little differently' a few posts earlier. The only difference to settings being the reverb which in this case is set to concert reverb preset.

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (14-03-2010 19:41)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

alfredo capurso wrote:

Gilles,

I can only think (and hope) you are right: "The only thing that might be different from others it that it is a 320kbps mp3 instead of the more common 160kbps."

Is it possible for you to let me have it 160 kbps? Or, can I modify some settings in my PC? Thank you.

Actually it should work. If you have a slow internet connection, make sure you download the complete file before starting to listen, do not try to listen while downloading. If you can't hear it, well, its not very significant, just a short demo...

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Gilles, when I click on that, it goes directly to the playing window, then after 30 (or so) seconds the play botton turns off. Anyway, thank you.

About the Chas 17ths test: we will remember that the first 6 intervals are too similar, so we may try to smooth the near bye higher rates and get back there with a better spread. What is important and very very positive is that the beat rate never inverts. This happens often and turnes many tunings in quasi-ET.

Chris, when ever you are ready we can go on with the next test.

I would check 10ths and 12ths together. Play 12th-3 sec. -pause 2 sec-10th-3 sec pause 2 sec - chromatic 10th and 12th - chromatic 12th and 10th up to D#7. Same energy all along, like before.

Your last recording is lovely, I realy like the amount of light and the lyric/singing power I ear. The last A# sounds flat to me.

Regards, a.c.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 010ths.mid

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 010ths.mp3

I hope I got this midi file right! If not, let me know where it is incorrect and I will fix it and post the ammended version complete with demo.

Regards

Chris

p.s. different piano in demo! M3 Close mic with first four mics enabled.

Last edited by sigasa (15-03-2010 11:16)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Alfredo, when you get a chance, could you expand a little on what you mean by inverting beat rates?

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Hi Jake, you write:..."could you expand a little on what you mean by inverting beat rates?".

I mean that you do not want chromatic RBIs go fast, then slow, then fast again. You want them progressive, i.e. goin up the scale, the beat rate has to fasten proportionally and smoothly, so that each interval's beat rate makes sense (speed wise) with the previous interval and the next.

Regards, a.c.

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Chris, that test is quite well "readable", good job.

I was asking to "chain" the sequence: 12th-10th / 10th-12th / 12th-10 etc...just to retain the beat memory of the previous interval, both for constant 12ths and progressive 10ths. But I went trough it without problems. Thank you.

I have to manage a sudden trip, as my parents need help. I would kindly ask you all to wait a few days before we go more in depth.

From couple 5 to 42 the beat rates are very satisfactory, especially for 12ths. Maybe the 10ths get a little bit wide, i.e. nervous or...tense, and start getting difficult to evaluate at couple 33.

You too could have a go and let me know.

Best regards, Alfredo.

Last edited by alfredo capurso (16-03-2010 00:02)

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

I agree about the tenths in the middle. Something's off there, and that's very bad, since it means the entire tuning is off, yes? The middle will need to be adjusted and then all of the notes on each side repitched to beat in the desired way?

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

alfredo capurso wrote:

I have to manage a sudden trip, as my parents need help. I would kindly ask you all to wait a few days before we go more in depth.

Hope all goes well for your parents Alfredo. Give them our love and best wishes.

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: A new Italian temperament: CHas

Hello.

Thank you for your words, Chris, my parents are now well and they have very much appreciated your wishes.

Jake, about our last test you write:..."I agree about the tenths in the middle. Something's off there, and that's very bad, since it means the entire tuning is off, yes? The middle will need to be adjusted and then all of the notes on each side repitched to beat in the desired way?"...

For what I can hear, the tenths tend to be a little bit fast, the 12ths are surprisingly good. This may mean that the fifth partial goes high, and I wonder if this may be related with the iH settings.

In any case, when I say "a little bit" I really mean very little, and thinking to usual standard of tuning I'd say that all these tests are really flattering.

In Chas theory, beats represent the system's power, and indeed beats (i.e. differences) are proportioned as to interrelate all partials. Then, beats symmetries and synergies can determine the stability and the resonance of the sound whole. The "pure" concept is not referred to one interval anymore, be it the octave (first ET) or the fifths (Cordier's) or the 12ths (Stopper's), but it is referred to the coherence and congruence of the beats in relation to the scale frequencies values.

Preciselly these kind of tests are really "raw" and may allow us to make raw comparesons with other temperaments, using the same timings, energy and intervals. So, the relation between beats proportions and euphonicity may be ear-catching.

Best regards, Alfredo.